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[Music]

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well I'd like to start with is going

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back to EMDR if you could explain for us

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EMDR and then since you practice that

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for so long and then you discovered this

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new therapy that you're saying is better

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than EMDR and I can tell you the David

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pickup says the same thing I assist

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association in reprocessing it was

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discovered by Francine Shapiro when she

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realized that when she focused on a

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negative event negative memory and she

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moved her eyes horizontally back and

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forth psychotically that it reduced the

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intensity of the image end of the

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feelings and from that start she

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eventually were developed actually for

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that time the best treatment for trauma

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and her first paper her first research

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was on combat veterans and and showed

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how much it worked to reduce their PTSD

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let me interrupt for a second could you

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but maybe just pull a computer a little

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bit closer to you I think we'll get a

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little bit better sound oh okay maybe it

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maybe this would be better here oh yeah

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yeah that's a thousand times better yep

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okay okay so so so she discovered EMDR

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and that's an interesting story

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she she did it simply by herself moving

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her own eyes back and forth that was her

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first to scuff that's how she first

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discovered stuff yeah Wow

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again dad yeah and he was looking for a

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way to relieve stress in general she's a

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she was a research psychologist and she

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was looking for a way to release release

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stress and that was like the beginning

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of it and when she realized you know she

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didn't took that experience that she had

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and then ended up creating really Treme

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zhing therapy as a result of it

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and am i right that it is based on this

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theory that during REM sleep your eyes

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do a rapid eye movement left and right

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and it's kind of a resetting of the left

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and right brain nope okay well I've been

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telling that to people at bars over and

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over again so I had that part wrong so

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correct that for me well the one thing

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we do know I mean number one we really

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don't know why EMDR works it seems like

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you know every five years they come up

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with a new theory about why it works but

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it it's not based on a theory it's based

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on clinical experience and that's what's

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really important it's not based on brain

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science it's based on having discovered

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something that when you focus when you

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when you move your eyes back and forth

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in a psychotic movement and you're

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focusing on a negative memory then it

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reduces it that's the experience brain

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science has not caught up with why

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things work we don't know why really

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psychotherapy works in terms of brain

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science we do know it does work okay so

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it could be it could have some

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correlation to REM sleep but we used

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okay well one thing we do know is that

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when one bit of research is that when

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you focus on any intense imagery and

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move your eyes back and forth it

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activates both hemispheres of the brain

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that's actually even without I think

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focusing on any particular image if you

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just move your eyes back and forth it

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activates both hemispheres of the brain

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at the same time so it's one reason why

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they use the eye movements in

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occupational therapy for people who've

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had concussions and why do your eyes

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move back and forth during REM sleep if

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you know from what I've heard it's about

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information processing so is there a

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connection maybe but I'm not sure if we

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really know for sure mm-hmm

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but bottom line it was very successful

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and and the in the way it was used was

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having and let's use the example of the

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soldier coming back from the war with

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PTSD taking that sold

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back to the traumatic incidents having

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him rethink it talk through it while

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he's moving his eyes to to see it yes

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they don't have they don't have to be

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talking through it at the time but they

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invoke the memory again they remember

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that they remember that memory and then

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move their eyes at the same time yes and

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was a laser involved no okay I thought

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that somehow you would use a laser to

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help the person you know follow the

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laser back and forth kind of thing well

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you know that's a later thing we're just

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doing the eyes what was what we we used

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and not what I used almost all the time

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was either my hand or a wand

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okay thanks like a clean duster one

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gotcha so follow it back and forth yeah

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anything that would help move the eyes

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and by the way for soldiers coming back

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with PTSD is it usually associated with

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an isolated event that happened during

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war as opposed to just the broad

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experience of being under so much

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pressure it's both I worked at Camp

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Pendleton for four years working with

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active-duty Marines and Navy who had

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come back from Iraq and Afghanistan with

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PTSD and it's a whole bunch of things

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there isn't just there is both single

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incidents that they remember very

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intensely and then there is the whole

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issue of being let's say seven months in

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country and being not being in a

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dangerous situation and being

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hyper-vigilant the entire time and

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getting RIT and also getting very little

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sleep same time I mean the other thing

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that you hear about about veterans

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coming back is this just broad sense of

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depression slash guilt and feeling out

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of place with coming from this

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environment where you're with your guys

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and everything is about your guys and

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working together and survival and it's

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everything is life and death and then

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when you come back and I'm thinking

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about the moon

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the American sniper where you know now

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the guys pushing a cart through a

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grocery store is just everything is just

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so different and there's and you feel

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guilty also about the guys that are

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still there risking their lives while

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you're back you know at Vons shopping in

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the fruit section is that a form of PTSD

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that these guys are going through or is

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that kind of just really a there's a lot

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you know it's saying it's PTSD is to

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simplifying it there's just a whole

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bunch of different psychological

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dynamics at play they form very deep

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bonds with the with the men that that

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they're with over there and there's so

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there's that there's also in combat

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there's a really intense feeling of

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belonging of connection because your

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life depends on your buddy and your

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buddies life depends on you yeah and

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that's all the good part so but when you

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get back home how does that manifest

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itself negatively can be really well it

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can be really depressing to say the

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least

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and one of the things that happens is I

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know that there were guys who the PTSD

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did not materialize until they were

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reassigned to a unit that they there was

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a new unit for them and all of a sudden

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those memories came flooding back and

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usually the month that what happens they

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come back they're glad to be back and

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over a period of just a few months

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that's when a lot of the memories start

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to resurface and now they're in a safe

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environment they're know when you're

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over there the adrenaline is so intense

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all the time that it's that for the sake

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of your survival which is why the

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adrenaline is going on everything is

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suppressed for the most part for most

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people and I can describe that also as a

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form of a high oh it's dreamland high is

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is there's something that I call combat

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addiction and it's where they want to go

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back they want to do it again because

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there is no nothing makes them feel more

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alive than being in combat it's the you

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get this adrenaline high

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and when they come back too often they

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even warn them don't buy a motorcycle

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because they're looking for that

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adrenaline high and they're not going to

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get it like they did and that's can be

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very depressing and some of them

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volunteered to go back in order to get

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that adrenaline high knowing how

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dangerous it is and that really is

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something different than PTSD then yes

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that's the feeling stage and is the the

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treatment that we're about to talk about

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IMT t is that really just designed for

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PTSD and in traumatic events or is that

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something that also could treat what

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you're talking about with this

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adrenaline why well it's important to

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understand that okay let's look at

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instead of looking at names let's look

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at psychological phenomena we know that

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trauma is a psychological phenomenon it

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took us a long time to discover that

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phenomena you know in World War one I

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think it was battle fatigue and no

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shell-shocked World War two it's battle

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fatigue or this and they and they

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realized that there was you know there

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was something that was when psychology

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discovered that hey there's something

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people can be traumatized by what's

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going on it but between the wars and

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after the war is they actually forgot

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about the effect of trauma on the

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person's psyche

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it wasn't until really the Vietnam War

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that they realized that the of the

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impact of trauma on a person not just

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military trauma but eventually civilian

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trauma as well and so we actually had to

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discover and could develop an actual

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concept for the psychological impact of

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traumatic events on people okay what I

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did back in 2001 is I discovered the

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feelings state that is what is the why

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do people keep doing something like that

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why do they why do they do addictions

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what's and it turns out that there is a

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positive while trauma is a fixated

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negative memory there's also can be a

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fixated positive memory a good example

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of that in the very is somebody who gets

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addicted to heroin and they have this

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memory of euphoria and that that memory

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has become fixated so they keep with

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what they call chasing the dragon

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chasing the dragon means that they're

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chasing that feeling they got the first

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time to use the heroin but it turns out

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that feeling States or that fixated

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positive memory it's not just about

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drugs for example um gambling so I had a

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man who was a social gambler until he

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won a really large hand playing Texas

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Hold'em and he won and what he what he

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felt was this intense feeling of being a

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winner and so for him the feeling of

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benek being a winner got linked or sort

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of fixated with playing Texas Hold'em

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and the problem with fixated memory is

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once it's fixated there's no way

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previous so he lost a million dollars in

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ten years but it didn't change that

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fixated positive memory so to in or for

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a second similar to a traumatic event it

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was a dramatic positive event correct

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mm-hmm

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okay and what I discovered was that that

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when that that's what I called a feeling

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state and a feelin state is just as

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intense of phenomena as a traumatic what

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we as a traumatic fixated event that

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causes PTSD and can result in addiction

274
00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:52,699
it yes I mean what you're looking at

275
00:13:01,240 --> 00:12:54,290
when you're looking at porn addiction or

276
00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:01,250
you're looking at sex addiction or shop

277
00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:03,769
like shoplifting addiction or marijuana

278
00:13:07,689 --> 00:13:05,750
or alcohol or not shoplifting just

279
00:13:10,179 --> 00:13:07,699
regular shopping shopping addiction is

280
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:10,189
also a you buy a Ferrari that's right

281
00:13:18,009 --> 00:13:14,870
and so anytime somebody has a fixated

282
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:18,019
positive memory it is a commit crea

283
00:13:22,869 --> 00:13:20,480
it's a compulsion to do that specific

284
00:13:25,569 --> 00:13:22,879
behavior in order to get that feeling

285
00:13:28,319 --> 00:13:25,579
but let me interrupt there and ask it

286
00:13:30,340 --> 00:13:28,329
doesn't happen for everyone right so

287
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:30,350
there's something going on for the

288
00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:33,230
person who wins the big hand at Texas

289
00:13:39,340 --> 00:13:35,809
Hold'em and has this euphoric feeling

290
00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:39,350
and then traces chases the dragon so to

291
00:13:45,069 --> 00:13:42,769
speak of having that feeling again where

292
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:45,079
it essentially becomes an addiction that

293
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:47,420
happens to not everyone obviously who

294
00:13:51,819 --> 00:13:49,910
wins the big man so what type of person

295
00:13:54,369 --> 00:13:51,829
is it that that's happening Judas is it

296
00:13:57,460 --> 00:13:54,379
somebody who has their own childhood

297
00:13:59,949 --> 00:13:57,470
trauma or issues prior to that the

298
00:14:05,289 --> 00:13:59,959
answer is of course yes what underlies

299
00:14:06,970 --> 00:14:05,299
those any the person who had a really in

300
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:06,980
the gambler who had a really intense

301
00:14:11,229 --> 00:14:09,529
need to feel like a winner had a problem

302
00:14:11,859 --> 00:14:11,239
that he had a very intense feeling that

303
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:11,869
he was a loser

304
00:14:16,090 --> 00:14:13,970
he had that feeling of being a loser

305
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:16,100
because his father had called him a

306
00:14:23,049 --> 00:14:21,410
loser so the person who is is okay

307
00:14:24,939 --> 00:14:23,059
psychologically and they win the jackpot

308
00:14:27,609 --> 00:14:24,949
they're gonna have a normal reaction

309
00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:27,619
which is to celebrate have a drink or

310
00:14:32,679 --> 00:14:29,660
two but then go back to their everyday

311
00:14:34,809 --> 00:14:32,689
life petrol the person who was had the

312
00:14:38,249 --> 00:14:34,819
negative feelings about themselves that

313
00:14:42,129 --> 00:14:38,259
euphoric feeling they really need that

314
00:14:44,829 --> 00:14:42,139
yes they need that again that's exactly

315
00:14:47,759 --> 00:14:44,839
right and so you have to do two things

316
00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:47,769
though you can't just solve the trauma

317
00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:50,569
because once the feeling state is

318
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:53,209
created once that fixated positive

319
00:14:59,019 --> 00:14:55,970
memory is created clearing the trauma

320
00:15:02,530 --> 00:14:59,029
doesn't make the feeling state go away

321
00:15:05,379 --> 00:15:02,540
it's now its own separate fixated

322
00:15:08,199 --> 00:15:05,389
positive memory yeah the same thing

323
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:08,209
would apply to drugs or alcohol so the

324
00:15:12,609 --> 00:15:09,290
person who's not feeling good about

325
00:15:16,269 --> 00:15:12,619
themselves they have a drink that they

326
00:15:19,059 --> 00:15:16,279
they finally feel good and now they get

327
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:19,069
fixated on having another drink because

328
00:15:24,789 --> 00:15:20,720
they're remembering how good it made

329
00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:24,799
them feel well yes one example here is

330
00:15:29,710 --> 00:15:26,740
that many times people start drinking

331
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:29,720
either in high school or college and

332
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:31,490
they start drinking with their buddies

333
00:15:36,579 --> 00:15:33,410
and so there's a deep feeling of

334
00:15:38,199 --> 00:15:36,589
camaraderie linked with drinking and so

335
00:15:39,490 --> 00:15:38,209
even though years later they're not

336
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:39,500
drinking with those buddies anymore

337
00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:41,450
whenever they take a drink

338
00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:44,300
they feel that sense of camaraderie and

339
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:45,950
that's what they're looking for and a

340
00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:47,570
solution they had to they had have had

341
00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:49,550
some underlying issues to begin with

342
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:53,420
well you know it that's partly it I mean

343
00:15:58,030 --> 00:15:55,610
certainly I mean their hat they do have

344
00:16:00,040 --> 00:15:58,040
a real intense need from camaraderie but

345
00:16:02,079 --> 00:16:00,050
there's also a very intense need at

346
00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:02,089
different times different psychosocial

347
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:08,180
needs at different times but probably if

348
00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:11,690
a person has a healthy childhood and

349
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:13,550
doesn't have a need for intense need for

350
00:16:18,930 --> 00:16:16,959
that feeling then it will not fixate yes

351
00:16:22,269 --> 00:16:18,940
so

352
00:16:27,490 --> 00:16:22,279
EMDR I've always heard about for dealing

353
00:16:29,230 --> 00:16:27,500
with past traumas mm-hmm I am TT you

354
00:16:31,449 --> 00:16:29,240
don't go through the trauma you go

355
00:16:36,430 --> 00:16:31,459
through the positive feeling right no no

356
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:36,440
no don't confuse okay okay okay while I

357
00:16:39,660 --> 00:16:37,670
was doing AMDR

358
00:16:42,190 --> 00:16:39,670
I developed the feeling state theory and

359
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:42,200
so I was using bilateral stimulation

360
00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:44,959
that is the eye movement to process the

361
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:47,480
feeling state so it went away and that

362
00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:48,860
worked really well the traumatic

363
00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:52,550
feelings know the positive feelings and

364
00:17:00,610 --> 00:16:57,529
ER work I used and ER as Shapiro created

365
00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:00,620
to process the trauma but you also have

366
00:17:06,669 --> 00:17:03,140
the feeling state the pop fixated

367
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:06,679
positive memory and so what I discovered

368
00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:10,720
is by doing the same movement and

369
00:17:17,140 --> 00:17:14,420
focusing on the positive memory that

370
00:17:19,569 --> 00:17:17,150
fixated positive memory you could break

371
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:19,579
the link between the behavior and the

372
00:17:24,130 --> 00:17:22,010
feeling and so the person just stops

373
00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:24,140
doing that behavior okay let me just

374
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:27,370
interrupt and ask this question EMDR

375
00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:31,610
used to go back to let's say it's a

376
00:17:37,780 --> 00:17:35,750
childhood trauma and to relive every

377
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:37,790
thinkit's while you're doing the eye

378
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:41,290
movement that helps reduce that trauma

379
00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:45,080
how is it that the same thing

380
00:17:50,299 --> 00:17:49,110
with a positive feeling because normally

381
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:50,309
you think you don't want to get rid of a

382
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:51,870
positive feeling but I guess what you're

383
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:53,610
saying is no you do want to get rid of

384
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:55,470
that positive feeling sure because

385
00:18:03,820 --> 00:17:58,679
you're locked into the past what happens

386
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:03,830
both both trauma and feeling states is

387
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:09,120
that you have an isolated a memory that

388
00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:12,480
is isolated from experience in other

389
00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:14,940
words net your you experience you have

390
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:17,880
as you go in life does it change that

391
00:18:24,169 --> 00:18:19,919
fixated either positive or negative

392
00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:24,179
memory so that you may feel little and

393
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:25,470
small and helpless when you're 5 years

394
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:28,080
old and you're getting beaten up you're

395
00:18:32,419 --> 00:18:30,210
30 years old now you're no longer small

396
00:18:35,659 --> 00:18:32,429
and helpless but you still feel that way

397
00:18:38,090 --> 00:18:35,669
because the fact that you've grown up

398
00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:38,100
and learned to be able to handle your

399
00:18:42,769 --> 00:18:40,440
life doesn't change that fixated

400
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:42,779
negative memory the same is also true

401
00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:44,850
for fixated positive memories as well

402
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:48,390
the feeling States because so the

403
00:18:53,299 --> 00:18:50,640
gambler who lost a million dollars in

404
00:18:55,159 --> 00:18:53,309
ten years that fixated positive memory

405
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:55,169
of feeling like a winner when he played

406
00:19:01,700 --> 00:18:57,690
Texas Hold'em didn't change whenever he

407
00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:01,710
lost he felt he would feel bad about it

408
00:19:05,299 --> 00:19:03,480
he would feel guilty bill remorse about

409
00:19:08,930 --> 00:19:05,309
what he was doing to himself into his

410
00:19:09,529 --> 00:19:08,940
and to his family but the memory was

411
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:09,539
still there

412
00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:11,880
and so you know as the guilt and remorse

413
00:19:15,710 --> 00:19:14,100
kind of went away the feeling State

414
00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:15,720
memory starts coming up and he wants to

415
00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:17,100
feel like a winner again he goes back

416
00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:20,070
and does it again and play Texas Holdem

417
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:22,980
okay okay could so walk us through

418
00:19:30,730 --> 00:19:26,850
exactly how I MTT works okay yeah the

419
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,740
process image transformation therapy is

420
00:19:35,389 --> 00:19:32,640
fundamentally different from all of it

421
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:35,399
let me explain kind of how I the first

422
00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:37,529
time I ever did anything about it when I

423
00:19:42,169 --> 00:19:40,260
first the first event that set me on the

424
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:42,179
track I was working with a man who was

425
00:19:50,269 --> 00:19:45,120
suicidal because his wife had left him

426
00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:50,279
for another man and I was and he was in

427
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:53,070
a lot of pain and that was in the

428
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:54,690
thought came to my mind well the only

429
00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:56,610
reason he's suicidal is because he hurts

430
00:20:00,440 --> 00:19:58,350
so if we could get rid

431
00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:00,450
of pain he wouldn't be in suicidal

432
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:02,910
anymore I found an old technique back

433
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:04,530
from the 60s where you breathe in the

434
00:20:09,289 --> 00:20:05,850
good energy and breathe out the bad

435
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:09,299
energy and I decided to modify it and so

436
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:12,990
I said what's the color of the pain he

437
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:16,530
said red and I said where is it on his

438
00:20:21,980 --> 00:20:19,919
body and he said different places we so

439
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,990
I had him breathe into the red and

440
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:23,760
breathe it out of his body and when we

441
00:20:29,870 --> 00:20:27,870
finished he wasn't suicidal anymore so

442
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:29,880
what I discovered was that with a

443
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:32,250
breathing visualization technique you

444
00:20:40,659 --> 00:20:34,530
can release emotional pain from the body

445
00:20:43,279 --> 00:20:40,669
and he was never suicidal again um then

446
00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:43,289
and it just kind of developed from there

447
00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:46,740
I also had then in my private practice I

448
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:48,600
had a child who's by having multiple

449
00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:52,710
Tantrums every every day and I because

450
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:54,840
of a very bad experience with her father

451
00:20:59,810 --> 00:20:57,110
we kind of processed that the same way

452
00:21:01,880 --> 00:20:59,820
the multiple the multiple Tantrums

453
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:01,890
dropped down to two a day which was a

454
00:21:08,090 --> 00:21:04,350
huge improvement then I had a woman

455
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:08,100
whose fiance had hung himself about a

456
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:10,679
year before and she felt incredibly

457
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,200
guilty about that even though it wasn't

458
00:21:17,779 --> 00:21:15,600
her fault he was a veteran and so [\h__\h]

459
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:17,789
she was a veteran and but at the time

460
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:20,070
that he hung himself there didn't seem

461
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:21,630
to be any particular problems what she

462
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:25,440
found him hanging in the garage and she

463
00:21:30,169 --> 00:21:27,690
had been having more problems with

464
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:30,179
depression and drinking too much over

465
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:32,130
the time and no matter how many times

466
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:33,450
her friends would tell her it's not her

467
00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:35,690
fault she didn't do anything wrong she

468
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:39,390
couldn't shake the guilt and so she came

469
00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:43,260
in for therapy and I just had an

470
00:21:47,419 --> 00:21:45,750
intuition that if we cleared the pain

471
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:47,429
underlying the guilt that the guilt

472
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:50,490
would go away and it worked we did the

473
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:51,690
same basic breathing visualization

474
00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:54,690
technique and all of a sudden this guilt

475
00:21:59,030 --> 00:21:56,220
[\h__\h] been living with for a year it was

476
00:22:01,730 --> 00:21:59,040
gone never to return

477
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:01,740
and that was so that was kinda like this

478
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:03,679
that was when I discovered that pain

479
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:09,480
underlies guilt and and then I had a man

480
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:14,880
who was in his 90s and he had what we

481
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:16,650
call hypochondriasis every time he had

482
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:19,919
any little thing go wrong on his body he

483
00:22:24,110 --> 00:22:21,809
would have to his it make his wife take

484
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:24,120
him into the emergency room and this was

485
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:33,770
so she was getting she got tired of

486
00:22:38,299 --> 00:22:35,970
taking him in and spending that many

487
00:22:39,650 --> 00:22:38,309
hours in the ER so she brought him in

488
00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:39,660
for therapy thinking it was a compulsion

489
00:22:45,380 --> 00:22:42,390
but what but really what it was he was

490
00:22:48,740 --> 00:22:45,390
terrified and we traced the terror down

491
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:48,750
to when he was in his 50s and he had

492
00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:50,820
angina attacks many thought he was going

493
00:22:56,780 --> 00:22:54,270
to die and that he got over that and

494
00:22:58,970 --> 00:22:56,790
then it didn't seem to bother him and

495
00:23:03,919 --> 00:22:58,980
when he was in his 90s when he is

496
00:23:05,630 --> 00:23:03,929
getting frail then he whenever something

497
00:23:07,580 --> 00:23:05,640
started to go wrong he just the terror

498
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:07,590
of him dying

499
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:11,910
came up now the way he worked with EMDR

500
00:23:17,150 --> 00:23:15,450
and Tara is very hard I've done it

501
00:23:21,470 --> 00:23:17,160
people people with MDR you have to

502
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,480
actually feel it and it's just this is I

503
00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:23,520
thought he would die on me if I actually

504
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,620
did it I mean who's he was frail he

505
00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:27,360
couldn't handle that kind of intensity

506
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:30,840
having him relive the terror yeah it

507
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:33,600
just that would just be too much and so

508
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:39,929
I thought about well let's try this okay

509
00:23:43,580 --> 00:23:41,730
and the first thing I first question I

510
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:43,590
asking is can you feel the pain

511
00:23:51,409 --> 00:23:46,080
underneath underneath the terror and he

512
00:23:52,669 --> 00:23:51,419
says no now I'm desperate so I say okay

513
00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:52,679
what color is the terror

514
00:23:59,690 --> 00:23:57,000
he said blue we cleared it out and about

515
00:24:01,900 --> 00:23:59,700
seven minutes later were finished and I

516
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:01,910
said how do you feel and he says well

517
00:24:08,510 --> 00:24:06,960
pretty good I went okay and but I don't

518
00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:08,520
really know if anything has changed

519
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,740
right so two weeks later he comes back

520
00:24:15,249 --> 00:24:12,559
in and I asked his wife

521
00:24:16,379 --> 00:24:15,259
him I said how's he been doing she said

522
00:24:18,639 --> 00:24:16,389
you know ever since that session

523
00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:18,649
whenever he had an issue he would just

524
00:24:22,090 --> 00:24:20,840
call the doctor and make an appointment

525
00:24:24,489 --> 00:24:22,100
like a normal person

526
00:24:25,869 --> 00:24:24,499
and it that was the end of it that's

527
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:25,879
when I realized that you could release

528
00:24:33,789 --> 00:24:30,529
not only pain with IMT T but Terra as

529
00:24:37,869 --> 00:24:33,799
well so what did I ended up developing

530
00:24:39,249 --> 00:24:37,879
is not just new protocols like that what

531
00:24:41,499 --> 00:24:39,259
I call that they're the first ones the

532
00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:41,509
pain terrible ease protocol so you can

533
00:24:48,489 --> 00:24:43,220
release pain or terror using this

534
00:24:51,180 --> 00:24:48,499
breathing visualization but beyond that

535
00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:51,190
I found that an entirely new

536
00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:54,200
understanding of psychological dynamics

537
00:24:57,519 --> 00:24:55,340
called their survival model of

538
00:24:59,499 --> 00:24:57,529
psychological dynamics and what I mean

539
00:25:01,450 --> 00:24:59,509
by that is who would have guessed that

540
00:25:03,129 --> 00:25:01,460
pain underlies guilt and instead of

541
00:25:05,889 --> 00:25:03,139
processing the guilt you process the

542
00:25:09,970 --> 00:25:05,899
pain underlying the guilt and then I

543
00:25:13,749 --> 00:25:09,980
discovered that pain or terror underlie

544
00:25:16,090 --> 00:25:13,759
shame and so by releasing pain or terror

545
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:16,100
whichever one they identify the Shan

546
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:17,690
goes away and you don't process the

547
00:25:23,139 --> 00:25:20,529
shame you process the pain or terror and

548
00:25:25,869 --> 00:25:23,149
this is so I not only developed new

549
00:25:28,629 --> 00:25:25,879
protocols for processing things so that

550
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:28,639
you can you can release the most intense

551
00:25:35,470 --> 00:25:31,730
pain the most intense terror the most

552
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:35,480
intense guilt and shame can be released

553
00:25:41,950 --> 00:25:38,240
without the person ever having to really

554
00:25:44,190 --> 00:25:41,960
experience it as long as they can tune

555
00:25:49,389 --> 00:25:44,200
into it enough as if from a distance

556
00:25:50,940 --> 00:25:49,399
they can release it and so I just and

557
00:25:53,379 --> 00:25:50,950
because of this I was able to discover

558
00:25:55,259 --> 00:25:53,389
entirely new form of psychological

559
00:25:57,730 --> 00:25:55,269
understand uh conception of

560
00:26:00,970 --> 00:25:57,740
psychological dynamics that I call their

561
00:26:02,649 --> 00:26:00,980
survival model and it just kind of grew

562
00:26:05,139 --> 00:26:02,659
from there so it's not only that I

563
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:05,149
develop new processing protocols which

564
00:26:10,749 --> 00:26:06,799
are much easier than AMDR

565
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:10,759
on the person to do but they but also

566
00:26:18,239 --> 00:26:12,799
discovered a new way to target and

567
00:26:23,379 --> 00:26:18,249
identify and target what psychological

568
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:23,389
dynamics to be most efficient at helping

569
00:26:27,810 --> 00:26:25,450
a person chain

570
00:26:31,379 --> 00:26:27,820
those change their behaviors and their

571
00:26:33,870 --> 00:26:31,389
and their feelings now how does the

572
00:26:36,629 --> 00:26:33,880
those anecdotes that you told me I'm not

573
00:26:38,669 --> 00:26:36,639
hearing about positive feelings and

574
00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:38,679
getting rid of the positive feelings

575
00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:40,750
associated with something so is that

576
00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:45,220
something different okay so um it's the

577
00:26:50,580 --> 00:26:48,700
case of the stupids I had a woman so

578
00:26:52,169 --> 00:26:50,590
this was going along really good people

579
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:52,179
were doing so you know it was so much

580
00:26:57,570 --> 00:26:54,940
easier I was still using EMDR though at

581
00:26:59,070 --> 00:26:57,580
this point I was still releasing the

582
00:27:01,919 --> 00:26:59,080
feelings before doing the trauma

583
00:27:05,129 --> 00:27:01,929
traumatic work and then doing bilateral

584
00:27:07,379 --> 00:27:05,139
stimulation afterwards because what

585
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:07,389
happens is it just people just it's so

586
00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:09,970
much easier to the MDR if the if the

587
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:12,070
intensity of feelings has been reduced

588
00:27:19,470 --> 00:27:15,490
by 90% so I'm still doing the bilateral

589
00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:19,480
stimulation at this point but what

590
00:27:28,110 --> 00:27:23,980
happened is one time is that I had a

591
00:27:32,610 --> 00:27:28,120
woman who's super intelligent and but

592
00:27:35,370 --> 00:27:32,620
she thought she was stupid and I mean

593
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:35,380
she was really a brilliant woman but she

594
00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:36,880
had this intense belief that she was

595
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,500
stupid and so we released the pain of

596
00:27:42,509 --> 00:27:40,720
being stupid and she said yeah it

597
00:27:46,139 --> 00:27:42,519
doesn't hurt anymore but I'm but I know

598
00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:46,149
I'm still stupid and that meant okay

599
00:27:49,289 --> 00:27:47,320
it's something I don't have something

600
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:49,299
right and I'm not I'm missing something

601
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,840
here

602
00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:52,000
and then I developed the image

603
00:27:57,539 --> 00:27:55,000
deconstruction protocol and it was

604
00:28:00,080 --> 00:27:57,549
another it's basically just another

605
00:28:02,639 --> 00:28:00,090
simple type of process where a person

606
00:28:05,639 --> 00:28:02,649
she focused on the image of herself

607
00:28:07,139 --> 00:28:05,649
being stupid and destroyed it and won't

608
00:28:08,639 --> 00:28:07,149
go through the whole process now because

609
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:08,649
you have to repeat it several times and

610
00:28:11,850 --> 00:28:10,510
then clear it from the body but after

611
00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:11,860
that she no longer know that she was

612
00:28:15,629 --> 00:28:13,240
stupid and realized how ridiculous it

613
00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:15,639
was now what does this have to do with

614
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:18,070
feeling states all right feeling states

615
00:28:22,980 --> 00:28:21,010
is an image so if I were to take the

616
00:28:27,629 --> 00:28:22,990
gambler he would have the image of

617
00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:27,639
playing Texas Hold'em and Heather the

618
00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:29,740
and the feeling of being a winner linked

619
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:32,980
together and what I would do is have

620
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:36,100
them see that image and then pixelate it

621
00:28:43,289 --> 00:28:38,830
like you would see pixels on a TV screen

622
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:43,299
and then destroy the image and repeat

623
00:28:48,269 --> 00:28:45,370
and repeat and repeat doing that wreak

624
00:28:50,909 --> 00:28:48,279
you know destroy it redo it recreate it

625
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:50,919
again pixelate it destroy it and do it

626
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:53,529
until you they cannot recreate it again

627
00:28:59,549 --> 00:28:57,850
and it's a blank screen and then the

628
00:29:01,200 --> 00:28:59,559
last step is to clear the pixel part of

629
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:01,210
particles from the body I won't go to

630
00:29:06,389 --> 00:29:04,090
that detail too much anyway

631
00:29:09,870 --> 00:29:06,399
and what so what I would do with a

632
00:29:12,629 --> 00:29:09,880
feeling state is exactly that so I would

633
00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:12,639
have the gambler think about playing

634
00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:15,100
Texas Hold'em feeling that feeling that

635
00:29:19,379 --> 00:29:17,220
he's a winter seeing that in the image

636
00:29:22,139 --> 00:29:19,389
pixelate it and destroy it until it

637
00:29:23,549 --> 00:29:22,149
cannot be created again and that turned

638
00:29:26,250 --> 00:29:23,559
out to be an incredibly efficient way to

639
00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:26,260
clear feeling States and this is done in

640
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:29,590
a one-hour session yeah feeling states

641
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:31,840
you were pretty fast to clear one-hour

642
00:29:35,370 --> 00:29:33,370
session and they're done you know

643
00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:35,380
something with and even with AMDR was

644
00:29:41,549 --> 00:29:38,980
fast feely states are very easy to clear

645
00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:41,559
once you identify them the challenge for

646
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:44,590
therapists is to identify what exact

647
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:47,049
feeling is there you can't just say I

648
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:47,769
feel good

649
00:29:52,289 --> 00:29:50,110
that's not gonna work you have to

650
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:52,299
precisely identify it so if it's a

651
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:54,610
feeling of belonging a bonding a feeling

652
00:29:59,580 --> 00:29:57,039
especially feeling important you have to

653
00:30:01,289 --> 00:29:59,590
identify exactly what the feeling is

654
00:30:04,220 --> 00:30:01,299
that they're looking for and does that

655
00:30:07,169 --> 00:30:04,230
take multiple sessions to identify that

656
00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:07,179
depends on how good you are most of the

657
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:09,460
time it only takes I don't know five

658
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:12,130
minutes once your experience said it it

659
00:30:16,289 --> 00:30:14,110
took me but when I was first figuring it

660
00:30:19,019 --> 00:30:16,299
out how to do it it took a while but

661
00:30:21,389 --> 00:30:19,029
you're now into treating people in and

662
00:30:24,629 --> 00:30:21,399
out somebody you've never met before

663
00:30:28,159 --> 00:30:24,639
and identifying the feeling state and

664
00:30:30,539 --> 00:30:28,169
erasing it in one session

665
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:30,549
probably yeah that's only that's only

666
00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:33,610
part of the treatment but yes um now you

667
00:30:37,409 --> 00:30:35,260
can have multiple feeling states

668
00:30:39,899 --> 00:30:37,419
associated with twenty-one behavior for

669
00:30:43,549 --> 00:30:39,909
example smoking very likely I've seen

670
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:43,559
seven feeling states with smoking but

671
00:30:47,490 --> 00:30:46,000
what happens is usually the first

672
00:30:49,580 --> 00:30:47,500
feeling state they come up with the

673
00:30:52,030 --> 00:30:49,590
first fixated positive memory they

674
00:30:55,090 --> 00:30:52,040
identify is the most powerful one

675
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:55,100
and it changes in after you clear a

676
00:30:59,530 --> 00:30:56,830
feeling state behavior changes

677
00:31:01,900 --> 00:30:59,540
immediately and I don't take time it

678
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:01,910
happens immediately so let's stick with

679
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:04,580
the compulsive gambler mm-hmm and

680
00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:06,140
getting rid of that good feeling that he

681
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:08,900
had when he won the big jackpot

682
00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:11,630
and now you've managed to get rid of

683
00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:13,580
that he can't reassemble it in his brain

684
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:14,390
anymore

685
00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:17,560
what next because it still was based on

686
00:31:21,850 --> 00:31:20,720
some type of trauma that would cause him

687
00:31:23,710 --> 00:31:21,860
to be the type of person who would

688
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:23,720
become it now we find out now we have to

689
00:31:29,530 --> 00:31:25,970
figure identify what the trauma is and

690
00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:29,540
clear that one that underlies it and how

691
00:31:34,540 --> 00:31:32,300
do you do that well what's interesting

692
00:31:36,430 --> 00:31:34,550
is a lot of times as you're clearing up

693
00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:36,440
the feeling state the traumatic memory

694
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:40,340
surfaces just right there but if let's

695
00:31:46,420 --> 00:31:42,740
say they had it had an intense need to

696
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:46,430
belong and you might ask you know where

697
00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:48,320
in your life did you feel you know

698
00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:50,060
what's the negative what is the negative

699
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:51,560
belief you have about yourself that you

700
00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:55,610
don't belong I'm no good when you think

701
00:32:00,520 --> 00:31:57,350
back in your past is there a particular

702
00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:00,530
memory that really evokes that I that

703
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:03,260
feeling that you're no good boom there

704
00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:06,170
we are we have a trauma to work on and

705
00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:14,290
process okay so let's say the the trauma

706
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:18,620
was their mother yelling at them and

707
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:22,000
saying that they're a miserable person

708
00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:26,120
horrible kid you're terrible okay that's

709
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:28,790
very painful we release the pain of it

710
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:33,710
and then there it could be that there is

711
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:36,320
something else that actually the AMDR

712
00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:39,170
overlooks is the shock every traumatic

713
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:41,980
event has shock associated with it and

714
00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:44,720
shock what Chuck does is it numbs of

715
00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:46,160
feelings and I think that's what causes

716
00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:50,150
actual fixation and then I would clear

717
00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:52,520
the shock if it's terrifying enough

718
00:32:57,670 --> 00:32:53,960
there's likely to be the feeling of

719
00:33:00,220 --> 00:32:57,680
frozen underneath that so using a form

720
00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:00,230
of the PT RP that I described the

721
00:33:04,510 --> 00:33:01,790
breathing visualization technique for

722
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:04,520
releasing a feeling and then do the

723
00:33:10,590 --> 00:33:06,400
image deconstruction

724
00:33:14,010 --> 00:33:10,600
to destroy the image of the mother

725
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:14,020
calling names mm-hmm yes shocked is

726
00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:16,000
interesting because that's probably what

727
00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:17,950
causes you to retain memories if I think

728
00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:19,750
back to my childhood and think about the

729
00:33:24,810 --> 00:33:22,300
things that I remember on the one hand

730
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:24,820
it seems kind of random on the other

731
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:26,770
hand it's probably things that were

732
00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:29,170
shocking at the time right that's

733
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:34,260
exactly right and if and one of the

734
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:37,510
problems with MDR is they don't there's

735
00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:39,490
there's concepts that they don't even

736
00:33:44,370 --> 00:33:41,860
have to work on so they don't even work

737
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:44,380
on the shock they could they just don't

738
00:33:49,530 --> 00:33:47,290
they haven't discovered that and with

739
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:49,540
IMT T it's pretty obvious and again you

740
00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:52,690
do another type of release by releasing

741
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:55,750
the feeling of shock but with I M TT if

742
00:34:01,170 --> 00:33:57,610
we're talking about releasing the very

743
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:01,180
bad traumatic memory the mother let's

744
00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:03,310
say you've been beating the child and

745
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:05,590
telling the child you're no good mm-hmm

746
00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:07,450
do they have to relive that to help

747
00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:11,790
release it no as a matter of fact once

748
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:14,380
so if the person were thinking it would

749
00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:15,760
that and they say they were terrified

750
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:17,800
you know they were just they could you

751
00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:19,750
know the mother's face they would they

752
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:22,030
wouldn't they're only supposed to feel

753
00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:23,679
it to the extent that they can see it

754
00:34:28,020 --> 00:34:24,460
from a distance

755
00:34:30,540 --> 00:34:28,030
so whereas sorry with EMDR do they

756
00:34:32,220 --> 00:34:30,550
relive it with the MDR they're much more

757
00:34:36,210 --> 00:34:32,230
likely to live it relive it that way

758
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:36,220
because it's yes they say it's the

759
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:38,050
primary benefit you believe of your

760
00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:40,690
technique is the person not having to

761
00:34:46,350 --> 00:34:43,120
relive the trauma that's one of the

762
00:34:50,010 --> 00:34:46,360
primary benefits of it in that it

763
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:50,020
releases the the intensity releases the

764
00:34:54,180 --> 00:34:52,240
pain releases the terror without the

765
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:54,190
person ever having to even experience it

766
00:35:01,860 --> 00:34:56,850
and so what happens is I mean I've had

767
00:35:05,130 --> 00:35:01,870
one one woman who had been sexually

768
00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:05,140
assaulted about a year before and they

769
00:35:09,210 --> 00:35:07,300
had done EMDR and it had actually made

770
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,220
her worse because every time she even

771
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:11,440
thought of the memory it was just it

772
00:35:15,620 --> 00:35:13,410
would reach Ramat eyes her

773
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:15,630
and so she's sitting in my office and

774
00:35:22,329 --> 00:35:18,210
her legs are shaking I mean they are

775
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:22,339
just shaking mile a minute there and

776
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:26,250
this was and I I knew what had gone on

777
00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:28,049
but I didn't ask her about it but she

778
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:29,400
was just sitting there terrified and I

779
00:35:32,779 --> 00:35:31,140
said why don't we just release the Tara

780
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:32,789
I know you look like you're really

781
00:35:36,009 --> 00:35:34,500
terrified won't we just don't you tell

782
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:36,019
me anything don't talk about it just

783
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:38,130
release the terror that would be I'm

784
00:35:42,289 --> 00:35:39,599
gonna tell I'm gonna help take you

785
00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:42,299
through a simple visual breathing vision

786
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:44,670
breathing visualization technique that's

787
00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:45,990
all we're gonna do don't tell me

788
00:35:52,460 --> 00:35:50,190
anything what colors iturra so she told

789
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:52,470
me I took her through this we finished

790
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:54,420
about 20 minutes later and by the time

791
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:56,730
we got down to her spine her legs it's

792
00:36:02,259 --> 00:35:58,890
not speaking at all and never shook

793
00:36:05,390 --> 00:36:02,269
again so we wouldn't finish that and

794
00:36:08,210 --> 00:36:05,400
then I said and I thought maybe now we

795
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:08,220
can you know my ideas let's tell me

796
00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:09,930
about the event a bit she couldn't tell

797
00:36:14,839 --> 00:36:12,630
me about it so I made a guess that what

798
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:14,849
she's experiences is experiencing is

799
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:19,200
intense shame so I said don't tell me

800
00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:19,710
about it

801
00:36:24,019 --> 00:36:22,470
does that shame feel painful terrifying

802
00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:24,029
just tell me that don't tell me anything

803
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:25,740
else up goes gone and she said it was

804
00:36:31,309 --> 00:36:28,410
terrifying so we cleared that there's

805
00:36:34,579 --> 00:36:31,319
Tara underneath the shame we finished

806
00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:34,589
this about 20-25 minutes later and all

807
00:36:37,089 --> 00:36:35,940
of a sudden now she could start talking

808
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:37,099
about it

809
00:36:43,940 --> 00:36:42,089
so we talked a couple minutes and about

810
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:43,950
what the event was I didn't need more

811
00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:44,490
than that

812
00:36:48,859 --> 00:36:46,740
and then we deconstructed it using image

813
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:48,869
deconstruction protocol and that was the

814
00:36:56,299 --> 00:36:54,089
end of that so this might be a better

815
00:36:57,499 --> 00:36:56,309
question for David pickup but first of

816
00:37:00,289 --> 00:36:57,509
all this is this the first you've

817
00:37:03,249 --> 00:37:00,299
learned that people are using your

818
00:37:07,069 --> 00:37:03,259
therapy for as reparative therapy for

819
00:37:09,289 --> 00:37:07,079
homosexuals or transgenders yeah yeah I

820
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:09,299
mean you know people people take my

821
00:37:14,029 --> 00:37:11,880
workshops I don't know what they do you

822
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:14,039
know if you know if they were to consult

823
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:16,140
with me I also have a you know a lot of

824
00:37:19,999 --> 00:37:18,480
times after people take my workshops

825
00:37:22,279 --> 00:37:20,009
they'll consult with me on particular

826
00:37:23,690 --> 00:37:22,289
cases that's when I actually find out

827
00:37:25,819 --> 00:37:23,700
what they what they what - they're

828
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,829
working with but yeah I haven't heard

829
00:37:29,749 --> 00:37:27,119
anything about using it

830
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:29,759
to therapy yeah so well David in their

831
00:37:35,269 --> 00:37:32,430
group have discovered and based on their

832
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:35,279
research even though it's controversial

833
00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:38,640
but they there's they published a book

834
00:37:45,259 --> 00:37:42,029
on it that homosexuality is linked to

835
00:37:47,210 --> 00:37:45,269
trial to childhood traumas most often if

836
00:37:50,359 --> 00:37:47,220
we're talking about a boy a traumatic

837
00:37:55,099 --> 00:37:50,369
issue with the father an abusive father

838
00:37:58,279 --> 00:37:55,109
an absent father you know lack of making

839
00:38:01,819 --> 00:37:58,289
a connection with a with a close male

840
00:38:04,009 --> 00:38:01,829
connection and that is the trauma that

841
00:38:06,349 --> 00:38:04,019
is the childhood trauma and he was using

842
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:06,359
EMDR to take them back to that trauma

843
00:38:13,220 --> 00:38:11,160
and having a lot of success with it here

844
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:13,230
if he uses and now he says he's using

845
00:38:17,329 --> 00:38:14,910
yours because he says you even having

846
00:38:19,220 --> 00:38:17,339
more success with it and you know

847
00:38:21,470 --> 00:38:19,230
they're the typical person that comes in

848
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:21,480
is it's a it's a man who's had the

849
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,130
homosexual feelings but it's been trying

850
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:25,440
to suppress them for whatever reason you

851
00:38:30,739 --> 00:38:27,119
know society you know he prefers not to

852
00:38:33,049 --> 00:38:30,749
be a homosexual and marries a woman has

853
00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:33,059
children still having trouble repressing

854
00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:35,849
these feelings now he's out cheating on

855
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:38,190
her on weekends with another man and

856
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:41,249
he's doesn't want to wreck his family so

857
00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:43,609
he goes in to get therapy for this now

858
00:38:47,569 --> 00:38:45,660
there's a lot of states that would like

859
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:47,579
to make this therapy illegal in fact the

860
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:49,680
state of California says it's illegal

861
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:52,380
for anyone 18 or under to get this

862
00:38:56,930 --> 00:38:54,569
therapy there was a law a bill last year

863
00:38:58,819 --> 00:38:56,940
the David pickup was very out in front

864
00:39:00,880 --> 00:38:58,829
of trying to oppose that would have made

865
00:39:04,729 --> 00:39:00,890
it illegal even for adults so that man

866
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:04,739
who wants to save his marriage and stop

867
00:39:09,229 --> 00:39:06,960
cheating on his wife with other men it

868
00:39:11,089 --> 00:39:09,239
would be illegal in SATA California for

869
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:11,099
him to try to treat those feelings I

870
00:39:16,940 --> 00:39:15,210
think that's outrageous that we should

871
00:39:19,729 --> 00:39:16,950
have freedom of our own minds and bodies

872
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:19,739
to to live how we choose to live whether

873
00:39:24,259 --> 00:39:22,650
we choose to live gay or straight but

874
00:39:26,809 --> 00:39:24,269
anyway that that's the typical type of

875
00:39:29,450 --> 00:39:26,819
patient though that David was dealing

876
00:39:30,799 --> 00:39:29,460
with so presumably he would be taking

877
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:30,809
that person back to the childhood trauma

878
00:39:36,349 --> 00:39:33,930
that he he had as a child and he and he

879
00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:36,359
finds that every single one of them that

880
00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:38,609
comes to him he can identify the

881
00:39:44,270 --> 00:39:39,990
childhood trauma every

882
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:44,280
single one had a traumatic incident with

883
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:46,770
yours where you add the positive

884
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:50,310
feelings I'm just wondering and again I

885
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:51,510
guess it's a better question for David

886
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:54,450
pickup but would you add in there you

887
00:39:59,540 --> 00:39:56,610
know the first feeling he had being with

888
00:40:02,000 --> 00:39:59,550
another male and the positive feelings

889
00:40:10,210 --> 00:40:02,010
that he had associated with that and and

890
00:40:15,050 --> 00:40:10,220
tried to reduce that well yes

891
00:40:20,330 --> 00:40:15,060
okay there is it you know it depends

892
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:20,340
it's the quality of so I had a man who

893
00:40:27,590 --> 00:40:23,790
had who was both married and fit that

894
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,600
criteria and he had homosexual

895
00:40:33,230 --> 00:40:29,760
relationships for the guys but there was

896
00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:33,240
this compulsive quality to it that was

897
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:34,830
different you can feel the difference

898
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:37,110
between somebody who's generally

899
00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:39,930
interested in other men or or women

900
00:40:44,930 --> 00:40:42,900
whatever it is and some money that it is

901
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:44,940
a compulsion there's that there's a

902
00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:47,609
different quality to it and if it's a

903
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:49,980
compulsion so with this guy it began

904
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:55,170
when he was the he was sexually abused

905
00:41:00,670 --> 00:40:57,119
by his brother when he was five years

906
00:41:03,730 --> 00:41:00,680
old and but it was very pleasurable and

907
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:03,740
that feeling of connection that he got

908
00:41:09,950 --> 00:41:06,900
was what he was seeking so it got

909
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:09,960
activated um later on in his life and it

910
00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:11,490
got that feeling of connection was

911
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:14,670
linked with men and certainly when we

912
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,310
cleared that feeling state he no longer

913
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:19,200
had a interest in having a sexual

914
00:41:29,090 --> 00:41:25,020
relationship with men that in my mind is

915
00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:29,100
very different than being truly gay you

916
00:41:33,859 --> 00:41:30,990
know if there is a trauma or a feeling

917
00:41:36,290 --> 00:41:33,869
state underneath that that is causing a

918
00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:36,300
particular behavior you're not then

919
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:38,609
you're not really focus to manage

920
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:40,650
behavior because I never tried to manage

921
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:44,730
behavior what I try to do is clear the

922
00:41:49,490 --> 00:41:47,130
underlying psychological dynamic so if

923
00:41:52,609 --> 00:41:49,500
there's a trauma there and it changes a

924
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:52,619
person's behavior on after by doing that

925
00:41:55,770 --> 00:41:53,410
that

926
00:41:57,540 --> 00:41:55,780
healthy yeah yeah I mean what they would

927
00:41:59,460 --> 00:41:57,550
say again it's controversial but what

928
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:59,470
they would say is that every homosexual

929
00:42:04,050 --> 00:42:00,640
has a traumatic

930
00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:04,060
trauma from their childhood to well

931
00:42:08,550 --> 00:42:05,950
every person has trauma from their

932
00:42:11,070 --> 00:42:08,560
childhood so that doesn't ya mean

933
00:42:12,990 --> 00:42:11,080
anything yeah well he would say the type

934
00:42:15,090 --> 00:42:13,000
of trauma that leads to it but yeah I

935
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:15,100
can send you their book and you can see

936
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:16,510
what they say about that but let's move

937
00:42:21,210 --> 00:42:17,890
on to other things that we've covered on

938
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:21,220
the show and that is addictions so would

939
00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:24,190
you say that substance people that have

940
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:25,950
substance addictions or substance abuse

941
00:42:33,090 --> 00:42:30,010
all of them have some child some trauma

942
00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:33,100
from their past that needs to be dealt

943
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:36,430
with sure I mean what you have anytime

944
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:38,110
you have an addiction you're their

945
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:39,760
addictions are caused by two different

946
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:42,910
two different psychological dynamics one

947
00:42:47,070 --> 00:42:44,710
is the positive feeling that they get

948
00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:47,080
from doing it and the other is avoidance

949
00:42:52,350 --> 00:42:50,830
of feelings so a person a gambler so

950
00:42:55,650 --> 00:42:52,360
they gamble so they don't feel anxious

951
00:42:59,970 --> 00:42:55,660
or then they smoke when they feel that

952
00:43:01,800 --> 00:42:59,980
they're when they feel loneliness so you

953
00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:01,810
have two different dynamics in clearing

954
00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:02,830
addiction you have two different

955
00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:04,780
psychological dynamics you have to solve

956
00:43:08,940 --> 00:43:07,420
you have to solve the feeling state the

957
00:43:11,670 --> 00:43:08,950
positive feeling and the underlying

958
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:11,680
trauma but also people just use it for

959
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:14,590
avoidance something that has nothing to

960
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:16,000
do with the feeling state whatsoever

961
00:43:23,310 --> 00:43:19,510
people you know so any behavior has can

962
00:43:26,970 --> 00:43:23,320
be used used in multiple ways you know

963
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:26,980
so a person has you know works too much

964
00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:30,810
in order to avoid feeling empty

965
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:32,350
something like that

966
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:34,780
so there's also avoidance and so you

967
00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:37,570
have to process those underlying

968
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:39,580
psychological dynamics that they are not

969
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:42,070
that they're trying to avoid is there

970
00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:46,710
always both the trauma and the positive

971
00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:49,990
event that they're seeking to recreate

972
00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:52,350
Jason and sometimes it's just avoidance

973
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:55,030
some sometimes sometimes it's just

974
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:56,530
avoidance and sometimes it's just a

975
00:44:01,500 --> 00:43:58,330
feeling state so I've had people with

976
00:44:03,810 --> 00:44:01,510
sex addictions who it really was about a

977
00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:03,820
positive feeling and once we cleared

978
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:05,680
that positive feeling the feeling state

979
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:06,640
they stopped

980
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:09,310
doing it you know the thing is about sex

981
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:10,570
addictions there's notes I've never

982
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:12,490
found I worked with hundred of so-called

983
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:15,250
sex addicts not one of them were

984
00:44:19,590 --> 00:44:17,710
actually addicted to sex but they're

985
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:19,600
really addicted to is a certain feeling

986
00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:21,760
and it may not have even occurred during

987
00:44:27,690 --> 00:44:25,030
the sex act for example with one man

988
00:44:33,810 --> 00:44:27,700
whenever the woman took off her clothes

989
00:44:35,610 --> 00:44:33,820
he felt manly for another guy it was for

990
00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:35,620
the very first guy had worked with with

991
00:44:41,970 --> 00:44:40,030
a sex addiction with was when that was

992
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:41,980
talking these about you know his having

993
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:44,470
sex with women his eyes didn't light up

994
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:46,960
and anytime you're talking about the

995
00:44:50,220 --> 00:44:47,770
feeling state

996
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:50,230
it's exciting to people their eyes light

997
00:44:54,510 --> 00:44:52,450
up going this something's wrong is not

998
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:54,520
it doesn't sound like he's even enjoying

999
00:44:58,530 --> 00:44:56,410
it that much so I said what do you do

1000
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:58,540
beforehand and he says you know he's

1001
00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:00,160
about getting their phone numbers and

1002
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:01,990
and dating them and stuff and that was

1003
00:45:06,030 --> 00:45:03,370
exciting but it didn't seem to work

1004
00:45:07,350 --> 00:45:06,040
didn't seem to be the big deal so I said

1005
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:07,360
well what do you do afterwards well

1006
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:09,130
afterwards I go tell a friend of mine

1007
00:45:17,010 --> 00:45:12,880
what I've done with his eyes I had a

1008
00:45:18,780 --> 00:45:17,020
friend like that okay and what they're

1009
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:18,790
looking for what he was looking for is

1010
00:45:23,130 --> 00:45:19,690
admiration

1011
00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:23,140
now where that came from was in high

1012
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:26,760
school his buddy has had a contest of

1013
00:45:30,750 --> 00:45:29,170
who would get the most number of women

1014
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:30,760
have sex with the most number of women

1015
00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:34,480
and he unfortunately won so he's feeling

1016
00:45:39,810 --> 00:45:37,870
like big men on campus and that became

1017
00:45:44,010 --> 00:45:39,820
the fixated memory for him and what was

1018
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:44,020
the trauma for him from childhood oh you

1019
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:46,210
know childhood trauma stuff where he

1020
00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:49,210
didn't feel good enough mm-hmm what

1021
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:51,160
about pedophilia since we're talking

1022
00:45:59,070 --> 00:45:56,400
about Epstein now you know I haven't I

1023
00:46:01,110 --> 00:45:59,080
worked at coiling a State Hospital for

1024
00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:01,120
sexual offenders for about a year in

1025
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:02,630
nine months

1026
00:46:06,359 --> 00:46:04,400
if they didn't really let me do any

1027
00:46:12,180 --> 00:46:06,369
individual therapy everything was group

1028
00:46:17,739 --> 00:46:15,849
you know I don't know is it nature or

1029
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:17,749
nurture some of them it seemed really to

1030
00:46:23,650 --> 00:46:21,890
be that's where they got fixated on when

1031
00:46:27,460 --> 00:46:23,660
they were a child I have worked with

1032
00:46:29,410 --> 00:46:27,470
somebody who like child pornography and

1033
00:46:32,170 --> 00:46:29,420
when we cleared that particular feeling

1034
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:32,180
there stopped having any interest in it

1035
00:46:39,609 --> 00:46:36,410
whatsoever so I haven't done enough with

1036
00:46:42,489 --> 00:46:39,619
it and part of the problem is is if

1037
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:42,499
you're in the hospital for it you've

1038
00:46:46,989 --> 00:46:44,569
been in prison for it you don't want to

1039
00:46:48,969 --> 00:46:46,999
go there because it's been so horrible

1040
00:46:50,799 --> 00:46:48,979
for you because you have to be able to

1041
00:46:54,729 --> 00:46:50,809
actually acknowledge it feel it to some

1042
00:46:57,309 --> 00:46:54,739
degree and and the people who are not in

1043
00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:57,319
not in the criminal justice system don't

1044
00:47:03,759 --> 00:46:59,680
admit it because then you go to prison

1045
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:03,769
mm-hmm so that's not something I've had

1046
00:47:07,630 --> 00:47:05,450
some people be interested in maybe doing

1047
00:47:09,789 --> 00:47:07,640
the research on it but nobody has come

1048
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:09,799
up with anything that I know of so I

1049
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:11,930
don't really know is it nature and

1050
00:47:16,479 --> 00:47:15,170
nurture maybe it's some summer one and

1051
00:47:18,579 --> 00:47:16,489
some of the other I don't know enough

1052
00:47:23,650 --> 00:47:18,589
yet we need what we start doing research

1053
00:47:25,779 --> 00:47:23,660
on that so going back to addicts you

1054
00:47:29,739 --> 00:47:25,789
know you've got people being sent to

1055
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:29,749
rehab centers 30-day rehab and the rehab

1056
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,690
center sends them to a a meetings make

1057
00:47:37,019 --> 00:47:34,160
sure to make sure you get yourself a

1058
00:47:39,789 --> 00:47:37,029
sponsor make sure your work the steps

1059
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:39,799
you're starting to feel the craving get

1060
00:47:48,489 --> 00:47:43,130
yourself to a meeting how do you feel

1061
00:47:49,809 --> 00:47:48,499
about that it's behavior management and

1062
00:47:54,099 --> 00:47:49,819
it works as well as behavior management

1063
00:47:56,349 --> 00:47:54,109
usually works pretty well okay

1064
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:56,359
they haven't cleared the trauma they

1065
00:48:04,719 --> 00:47:58,249
haven't cleared the feeling states what

1066
00:48:10,109 --> 00:48:04,729
do you expect to happen and who what

1067
00:48:13,029 --> 00:48:10,119
percentage of therapists are doing EMDR

1068
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:13,039
number one and then secondarily I MTT

1069
00:48:15,970 --> 00:48:15,049
because I had never heard of me do these

1070
00:48:18,340 --> 00:48:15,980
things

1071
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:18,350
um you know I'm not sure they're

1072
00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:19,850
happening are they happening in any

1073
00:48:23,980 --> 00:48:22,430
treatments rehabilitation centers that

1074
00:48:26,859 --> 00:48:23,990
you know it oh absolutely

1075
00:48:29,230 --> 00:48:26,869
um they are definitely using EMDR

1076
00:48:35,940 --> 00:48:29,240
they're not am i MTT is much newer I

1077
00:48:44,410 --> 00:48:41,109
2013 something like that you know

1078
00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:44,420
Malibu's down the road from us promises

1079
00:48:50,050 --> 00:48:46,420
in Malibu yep

1080
00:48:53,530 --> 00:48:50,060
for 30 days for my heroin addiction or

1081
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:53,540
whatever addiction are they using in Dr

1082
00:48:57,940 --> 00:48:56,450
on me I have no idea I don't know um

1083
00:49:01,690 --> 00:48:57,950
most of them don't

1084
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:01,700
some of them do yeah I mean that's my if

1085
00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:04,400
you don't clear trauma I mean I mean one

1086
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,240
of the one of the fascinating and really

1087
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:09,440
disheartening things about the state of

1088
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:13,250
psychology is you know India has been

1089
00:49:18,580 --> 00:49:16,010
around since 1989 the first paper was

1090
00:49:23,170 --> 00:49:18,590
Shapiro publisher paper first paper on

1091
00:49:25,570 --> 00:49:23,180
that and it is up until I MTT it was by

1092
00:49:29,859 --> 00:49:25,580
far the best way of dealing with trauma

1093
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:29,869
and I have people and so many therapists

1094
00:49:33,940 --> 00:49:31,970
probably most therapists are not trained

1095
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:33,950
in how to deal with trauma and yet

1096
00:49:38,349 --> 00:49:36,710
trauma is a fundamental aspect of why

1097
00:49:41,170 --> 00:49:38,359
people are having dysfunction of their

1098
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:41,180
lives yeah I mean what what percentage

1099
00:49:46,030 --> 00:49:43,310
of people were having dysfunction in

1100
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:46,040
their lives it's a base it's a result of

1101
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:48,230
prior traumas what percentage uh-huh

1102
00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:52,010
100% 100% 100% you had there's two

1103
00:50:00,220 --> 00:49:55,820
different dynamics and this is what EMDR

1104
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,230
over overlooks and that's neglect trauma

1105
00:50:04,990 --> 00:50:02,960
is easier to identify because there it

1106
00:50:07,150 --> 00:50:05,000
is it so you know somebody hits you boom

1107
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:07,160
you can see it but what about when no

1108
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:09,470
one's there what about or maybe they're

1109
00:50:12,940 --> 00:50:10,880
there physically but they're not that

1110
00:50:14,890 --> 00:50:12,950
there's no good interplay at all between

1111
00:50:18,270 --> 00:50:14,900
parent and child and they're left with

1112
00:50:21,370 --> 00:50:18,280
this feeling of hollowness or emptiness

1113
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:21,380
that actually is I have seen people who

1114
00:50:25,090 --> 00:50:22,910
didn't want to release their pain

1115
00:50:27,130 --> 00:50:25,100
because under least and underneath the

1116
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:27,140
pain was a feeling of emptiness and

1117
00:50:30,490 --> 00:50:28,310
that's worse

1118
00:50:33,190 --> 00:50:30,500
mmm-hmm there's what I call the feelings

1119
00:50:35,980 --> 00:50:33,200
of absence loneliness feeling of

1120
00:50:38,380 --> 00:50:35,990
emptiness well pick up calls that a

1121
00:50:41,550 --> 00:50:38,390
trauma because that is the trauma that

1122
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:41,560
he's uncovering with many that the

1123
00:50:49,630 --> 00:50:45,290
absence of a father not being there is

1124
00:50:51,580 --> 00:50:49,640
can be a form of trauma the processing

1125
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:51,590
is different the identification is

1126
00:50:56,380 --> 00:50:53,690
different I I don't like to I do not

1127
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:56,390
want to complaint the two to put the two

1128
00:51:00,220 --> 00:50:58,400
together and I may and I may have that

1129
00:51:01,690 --> 00:51:00,230
wrong but but I do know that they

1130
00:51:04,930 --> 00:51:01,700
they're finding a big correlation

1131
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:04,940
between the absence oh I don't doubt it

1132
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:07,250
in issues I don't doubt it I mean there

1133
00:51:13,630 --> 00:51:10,160
are the feelings of absence are even

1134
00:51:15,370 --> 00:51:13,640
more powerful motivators than trauma and

1135
00:51:18,670 --> 00:51:15,380
you don't make the point that it's more

1136
00:51:20,980 --> 00:51:18,680
difficult for EMDR to treat that yes

1137
00:51:23,350 --> 00:51:20,990
that type of quote/unquote trauma

1138
00:51:27,220 --> 00:51:23,360
whereas with IM CT it's very simple to

1139
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:27,230
treat so I'm a big Howard Stern fan and

1140
00:51:31,930 --> 00:51:29,450
he loves to talk about how often he sees

1141
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:31,940
his therapist and two times a week three

1142
00:51:38,650 --> 00:51:34,640
times a week for 20 years I mean is that

1143
00:51:41,410 --> 00:51:38,660
type of therapy appropriate in light of

1144
00:51:42,970 --> 00:51:41,420
what you do and and and people come in

1145
00:51:49,060 --> 00:51:42,980
in and out in one session having such

1146
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:49,070
dramatic changes it means they're not

1147
00:51:54,550 --> 00:51:52,610
really processing things so many things

1148
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:54,560
not being therapy just to be clear

1149
00:51:59,320 --> 00:51:55,910
someone should not be in therapy for the

1150
00:52:00,430 --> 00:51:59,330
four years no actually I mean it could

1151
00:52:01,810 --> 00:52:00,440
be that they had such a horrible

1152
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:01,820
childhood that they're having no trouble

1153
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:04,490
even identifying anything and that would

1154
00:52:08,410 --> 00:52:07,010
be different I think that is the point

1155
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:08,420
when people think about therapists and

1156
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:10,250
therapy that's what most people think

1157
00:52:15,130 --> 00:52:11,810
about they think about seeing your

1158
00:52:18,580 --> 00:52:15,140
therapist once a week if not more yeah

1159
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:18,590
with with IMT t you get changes almost

1160
00:52:22,270 --> 00:52:20,810
from the beginning usually from the very

1161
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:22,280
first session if we do a double session

1162
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:24,410
because it takes some time to take a

1163
00:52:30,310 --> 00:52:27,890
history taking and stuff but people have

1164
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:30,320
very profound changes very fast with IMT

1165
00:52:35,530 --> 00:52:32,450
t much faster than with even EMDR and

1166
00:52:36,910 --> 00:52:35,540
EMDR is way beyond if you're just doing

1167
00:52:40,420 --> 00:52:36,920
talk therapy you're not changing

1168
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:40,430
anything not really you know that they

1169
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:41,970
adjust to it they

1170
00:52:47,390 --> 00:52:44,970
you know they understand it more they

1171
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:47,400
they're not so you know freaked out by

1172
00:52:52,220 --> 00:52:50,010
it perhaps but it doesn't change the

1173
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:52,230
underlying psychological dynamics but

1174
00:52:57,559 --> 00:52:53,760
you say you're not very good for their

1175
00:52:58,609 --> 00:52:57,569
business no you're not even very good

1176
00:53:01,010 --> 00:52:58,619
for your own business

1177
00:53:02,990 --> 00:53:01,020
no I you're right I mean I have people

1178
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:03,000
come and you know we do five sessions

1179
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:04,319
and they're going you know I'm a lot

1180
00:53:10,069 --> 00:53:08,010
better now it's over I'm going okay I I

1181
00:53:14,230 --> 00:53:10,079
hope you charged more per per session

1182
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:14,240
than most therapists no not really

1183
00:53:20,059 --> 00:53:17,280
what's the average price of a session

1184
00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:20,069
oh I charge $200 for 50 minutes 5-0

1185
00:53:27,890 --> 00:53:25,140
mm-hmm so but this could be one of the

1186
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:27,900
reasons why we don't hear more about

1187
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:30,690
this because well it's still just you

1188
00:53:34,970 --> 00:53:32,640
know something I'm still I mean I

1189
00:53:37,130 --> 00:53:34,980
published I've still been developing it

1190
00:53:39,730 --> 00:53:37,140
so I haven't been you might say not mark

1191
00:53:44,839 --> 00:53:39,740
number one I'm not much of a marketer

1192
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:44,849
but I've really been developing it and I

1193
00:53:51,530 --> 00:53:47,910
only have dealt that it's fairly well

1194
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:51,540
developed actually in the last year you

1195
00:53:54,349 --> 00:53:53,130
know I mean it people have been using it

1196
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:54,359
for now years I've been teaching

1197
00:53:58,819 --> 00:53:57,210
therapist how to use it and sometimes

1198
00:54:00,349 --> 00:53:58,829
especially near the beginning I was

1199
00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:00,359
driving them nuts as I would keep

1200
00:54:05,690 --> 00:54:02,250
changing the names of the protocols as I

1201
00:54:07,809 --> 00:54:05,700
would discover new things so I mean the

1202
00:54:10,819 --> 00:54:07,819
newest protocol I developed last year

1203
00:54:12,319 --> 00:54:10,829
that made a huge difference in the way

1204
00:54:16,849 --> 00:54:12,329
of treating for things like social

1205
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:16,859
anxiety for example and so there's so

1206
00:54:21,290 --> 00:54:18,890
it's been developing and I feel more

1207
00:54:25,250 --> 00:54:21,300
that I feel like it's developed

1208
00:54:28,099 --> 00:54:25,260
conceptually well now and I got lots of

1209
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:28,109
lots of feedback from both therapists

1210
00:54:34,130 --> 00:54:31,200
and the clients of those therapists that

1211
00:54:36,109 --> 00:54:34,140
it's really working well well

1212
00:54:38,030 --> 00:54:36,119
congratulations I think it's an amazing

1213
00:54:39,980 --> 00:54:38,040
breakthrough just as I think EMDR is a

1214
00:54:41,390 --> 00:54:39,990
great breakthrough and it's very

1215
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:41,400
disappointing to hear that that's not

1216
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:44,339
more widespread yes I hope yours becomes

1217
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:46,050
more widespread I mean ballpark how many

1218
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:47,760
therapists out there are practicing your

1219
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:49,680
therapy

1220
00:54:56,029 --> 00:54:51,690
I've trained about 150 right now and

1221
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:56,039
what about EMDR how many out there well

1222
00:54:59,720 --> 00:54:57,930
the problem you always have is how many

1223
00:55:01,250 --> 00:54:59,730
people did the workshops and how many

1224
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:01,260
people really got certified I mean

1225
00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:02,490
there's a huge difference between the

1226
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:02,700
two

1227
00:55:09,019 --> 00:55:06,210
EMDR is has a much deeper learning curve

1228
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:09,029
one of the advantages of IMT T is that

1229
00:55:12,620 --> 00:55:10,559
it is a gentle learning curve that is

1230
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:12,630
you can just start using some of it in

1231
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:14,250
your practice like releasing the pain

1232
00:55:17,839 --> 00:55:16,049
and terror and keep doing what you're

1233
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:17,849
already doing and then keep adding to it